The Wheel of Time takes us to the world of dreams—and beyond—in episode five

Does anybody know if Amazon considers this a success? What are the chances of something like the stormlight archive getting made.

The whole story of bridge 4 would make for some great tv (I think?)
I don't know the answer to the first part, but I think, if anything, this show has made Brandon Sanderson less likely to agree to option Stormlight Archive anytime soon. (Just from what I've seen of his comments about his involvement in season 1 before being cut out in season 2 and beyond.) My theory is that ultimately he will hire people himself to make it through his publishing company Dragonsteel Entertainment so he has complete control.

If you're interested, he gave a big status update on the Hollywood adaptation progress of all his works in December in his "State of the Sanderson 2024". Stormlight Archive or even just The Way of Kings weren't even mentioned in the Hollywood section.
 
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MST2.021K

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I don’t recall her being quite that blasé about death in the books, but it has been a while. Regardless, while she’s not capital-E EEEEEVIL, she’s clearly not a good person.
I saw similar comments elsewhere and I think it just emphasizes that she firmly believes the ends justifies the means. She sees weakness and rot in the Tower and will do whatever she needs to eliminate that.
 
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Tofystedeth

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Does anybody know if Amazon considers this a success? What are the chances of something like the stormlight archive getting made.

The whole story of bridge 4 would make for some great tv (I think?)
They seem to be pretty happy with it so far. Though in this day and age whether that's happy enough for renewals is often a question with counterintuitive answers.
https://press.amazonmgmstudios.com/...-video-reveals-firstlook-images-for-season-th
The Wheel of Time series on Prime Video has solidified its place as a monumental success for the platform. Based on Robert Jordan's beloved and epic fantasy book series, the show weaves a tale of magic, destiny, and adventure that has captured the imagination of fans worldwide. In 2021, Season One launched as the biggest original series debut in Prime Video history at the time, excelling in both reach and subscriber acquisition. It continues to remain among the top three series debuts of all time on Prime Video behind The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power and Fallout. Overall, the show has generated more than 100 million viewers worldwide to-date. Additionally, both Seasons One and Two are Certified Fresh on Rotten Tomatoes, further cementing the show's critical acclaim. The Wheel of Time serves as a cornerstone of Amazon MGM Studios' suite of successful, high-quality tentpole fantasy series, and together, these series underscore the studio's leadership in delivering premium storytelling to a global audience.
 
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Does anybody know if Amazon considers this a success? What are the chances of something like the stormlight archive getting made.

The whole story of bridge 4 would make for some great tv (I think?)
There hasn't been anything official from anyone. In the summary to the first three episodes, Tofystedeth indicated that Amazon is committed but that Sony was dragging their feet. Maybe they're waiting for the response to the full season.

Rafe did talk about the team being busy, but whether that's with promo work or pre-production on the next season, he didn't say. Fingers crossed it's pre-production/scripting.


This episode felt like a transition episode, similar to episode three. We're getting people into place for the big set pieces of the season. I have high hopes that there will be four huge story beats, which is a lot to cram in to three episodes, especially since I expect episode seven will focus on one story in particular: the Battle of the Two Rivers.
 
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Case

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I found that season 1 was meh and 2 mediocre so I'd never have imagined the show turning into a masterpiece but season 3 is nothing but great so far.

Keep going like this and I'll eagerly await another 12 seasons.
Interesting. I couldn't get through two episodes of season 1.

It wasn't quite as awful as the (so-called) adaptation that someone did of the Wizard of Earthsea, or the Shannara one, but it was close.

Then again, I tried to get through all the novels recently and had a hard time as well, for different reasons. The last Jordan-written book with al the switching and spanking just grossed me out completely. "Hey, we've captured our sworn enemy who wants to kill us, lets switch her bare bottom--repeatedly, in detail--as punishment". JFC....
 
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I found that season 1 was meh and 2 mediocre so I'd never have imagined the show turning into a masterpiece but season 3 is nothing but great so far.

Keep going like this and I'll eagerly await another 12 seasons.
It's pretty good, but some of the actors are....not great. They also need to stop with the swooshy blades sounds.
 
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snoopy.369

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I enjoyed this series so far, as a person who read the first six books but gave up when it got too complex and impossible for me to follow. Season 3 definitely has been the best though, clearly better television even aside from anything in the books (and I can't remember anything from the books, so discontinuities from the books don't bother me at all).

Curious: how many seasons will this go if it tells the full story? Assuming they skip over some of the middle of the series that really drags, could this be a 6-7 season show? I can't imagine it will be renewed for 12 seasons or whatever it would take to go one book per season...
 
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It's pretty good, but some of the actors are....not great. They also need to stop with the swooshy blades sounds.
What made me chuckle out loud this episode was when the group went into the Whitecloak camp and the foley artists had the sisters' spears clank metallically... yeah, two women who were masters of stealth would let their weapons that they live and die by clank around noisily while strolling through an enemy camp....
 
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Tinolyn

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I saw similar comments elsewhere and I think it just emphasizes that she firmly believes the ends justifies the means. She sees weakness and rot in the Tower and will do whatever she needs to eliminate that.
Also, assuming the show is going to follow Elaida's path from the books, they probably thought she must start out more ruthless due to the content they had to cut to turn Wheel of Time into a TV series.
 
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Interesting. I couldn't get through two episodes of season 1.

It wasn't quite as awful as the (so-called) adaptation that someone did of the Wizard of Earthsea, or the Shannara one, but it was close.

Then again, I tried to get through all the novels recently and had a hard time as well, for different reasons. The last Jordan-written book with al the switching and spanking just grossed me out completely. "Hey, we've captured our sworn enemy who wants to kill us, lets switch her bare bottom--repeatedly, in detail--as punishment". JFC....
There were times in the books when I thought I'd picked up the BDSM fan fiction version on accident.
 
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solomonrex

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I found that season 1 was meh and 2 mediocre so I'd never have imagined the show turning into a masterpiece but season 3 is nothing but great so far.

Keep going like this and I'll eagerly await another 12 seasons.
It's amazing to me how much better it is now. It really got its sea legs (or budget) and is fully engaging. And the plot differences are paying off, in the sense that I don't quite know what's going to happen and it's quite engaging.

I only have minor complaints. The Aiel not being all fair haired and redheaded and the difficulty of telling groups apart when they're all equally diverse.

All the main casting is great though (with Mat's replacement). Really shocking for how thrown together this series was originally.

Second is just that Perrin's wolves have been reduced almost to the point that only book readers would notice it. Not enough gambling for Mat I suppose either, something has to lose I guess.

And third, it seems like there's so much extra sex and none of the military details that the original author knew (Vietnam veteran) that grounded the book series at times. You know, the troubled first season skipped over some of the boys learning martial arts, there's no warder captain with the Princes, the Whitecloaks POV is (thankfully) scarce. But it's covering so much territory after all.

It's a shame they can't refilm the first season, but the irony is that the books needed an abridgement too as we all know.

It's finally going great, I hope they can keep it up.
 
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solomonrex

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I can't for the life of me remember Faile and what she was in the books. I recall Perrin having a spirit guide, wolf person. Is that her (I recall it being a male).
I don't think this spoils the show - but be warned:

No, Faile was his romantic interest. He didn't have a wife in the books, it was only Faile and that part is pretty faithful to the source material for what it's worth.

They didn't do the full Hunt For the Horn kick off festival, but oh well.

Also, Faile's father Davram Bashere was the crazy cossack style general that mentors Rand later on being crazy. And, you know, generalling. A minor character that will probably be folded into Rhuarc, sadly. Who knows? Lots going to be on the cutting floor and there will still be dozens of characters introduced yet. How they handle the Seanchan is beyond me. Hopefully sparingly.
 
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I can't for the life of me remember Faile and what she was in the books. I recall Perrin having a spirit guide, wolf person. Is that her (I recall it being a male).
They had Elias (the other wolf-brother) in the previous season as a mentor-character to Perrin. The slain wolf, Hopper, was more a presence in the books because we got telepathic-style dialogue between him and Perrin that the show chose(probably correctly) not to do.

Faile is the love interest, but her arc is also most of the Slog in the middle books.
 
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Tofystedeth

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It's amazing to me how much better it is now. It really got its sea legs (or budget) and is fully engaging. And the plot differences are paying off, in the sense that I don't quite know what's going to happen and it's quite engaging.

I only have minor complaints. The Aiel not being all fair haired and redheaded and the difficulty of telling groups apart when they're all equally diverse.

All the main casting is great though (with Mat's replacement). Really shocking for how thrown together this series was originally.

Second is just that Perrin's wolves have been reduced almost to the point that only book readers would notice it. Not enough gambling for Mat I suppose either, something has to lose I guess.

And third, it seems like there's so much extra sex and none of the military details that the original author knew (Vietnam veteran) that grounded the book series at times. You know, the troubled first season skipped over some of the boys learning martial arts, there's no warder captain with the Princes, the Whitecloaks POV is (thankfully) scarce. But it's covering so much territory after all.

It's a shame they can't refilm the first season, but the irony is that the books needed an abridgement too as we all know.

It's finally going great, I hope they can keep it up.
The show has only barely arrived at the point where actual armies and military stuff begins to matter.
(Books)
We're getting Perrin forming the Two Rivers army, Rand is just about to gather the Aiel. Mat is only beginning to figure out his memories and it's still a few books before the Band of the Red Hand forms.
Rand hasn't yet conquered any cities, though Tear or Cairhien or even Illian could be coming at the end of this season or next season at the rate things are going.
The Tower split is likely coming in ep 6 or 8 which lays groundwork for the Salidar army to have a reason to exist, and we haven't yet gotten to the succession crisis that kicks off the gathering of the Andoran army and mercs. Nor will the Asha'man be formed until Rand has a city or two under his control.
 
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I saw similar comments elsewhere and I think it just emphasizes that she firmly believes the ends justifies the means. She sees weakness and rot in the Tower and will do whatever she needs to eliminate that.
My reading of the book is that the White Tower is a rather severe place to live. Thus, the idea that Elaida would kill one Black Ajah to threaten the other struck me as "typical Tower behavior" and Siuan's choice not to "unusual" by Tower standards. It reinforced how hard it is for Siuan to push the Tower toward "bending the knee" to the Dragon.
 
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Tinolyn

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My reading of the book is that the White Tower is a rather severe place to live. Thus, the idea that Elaida would kill one Black Ajah to threaten the other struck me as "typical Tower behavior" and Siuan's choice not to "unusual" by Tower standards. It reinforced how hard it is for Siuan to push the Tower toward "bending the knee" to the Dragon.
It's also pretty obvious in the books that the Red Ajah is quite...severe...with men (obviously, due to saidin's corruption) and with those it just doesn't like, or well, those they think are traitors. Siuan and Leane get a bit of that in the books, as does Egwene. Moiraine's headspeak in the books also shudders at the thought of being in Red Ajah custody.
 
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Kazper

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There were times in the books when I thought I'd picked up the BDSM fan fiction version on accident.
I've never fully understood this complaint.

Yes, Jordan clearly had some kinks he proudly displayed in the books if you know enough to parse his phrasing, but the books are really milquetoast about anything sexual - including the spankings. There might be a lot but there is close to zero titillation in the way he writes it.
 
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Lavonheim

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I've never fully understood this complaint.

Yes, Jordan clearly had some kinks he proudly displayed in the books if you know enough to parse his phrasing, but the books are really milquetoast about anything sexual - including the spankings. There might be a lot but there is close to zero titillation in the way he writes it.
(I should have sat on this before posting...)

One, I grew up when corporal punishment was only just beginning to be considered bad parenting, and I don't think it was a kink on Jordan's part. I think it was just him drawing on his experience. The bondage on the other hand....
between Graendal's throne, Moghedien taking inspiration from it, the ivory bracelet Moiraine leaves out for Lanfear and has when she returns, Faile's punishment in Crossroads of Twilight....
I'm a little more sympathetic to seeing that as being a kink of his, especially with the relatively more generous detail of that last example. But even then, I agree that it's not written to titillate. Or at least if he intended it to he failed miserably. Even that last example falls well short.
When I see people talking about that and the nudity as being his kink, I wonder if it's because it's they're imagining that people who are into it would find those descriptions titillating.
At least with the whole "three wives" bit, we have his word that it was based on his own experience of having two girlfriends sharing him.
 
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balthazarr

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It seems I have a different opinion to most so far – I was disappointed with this episode, and most disappointed with how they dealt with the dream world. Not just the depictions, but its introduction.

Egwene just seems to jump into expert mode, flitting between dreams and things mostly sticking. Understandable, of course, from a budget perspective, but slightly disappointing nonetheless. They could've done some sort of visual effect to differentiate it more, at least.

I also don't think there was enough exposition about her abilities, and Tel'aran'rhiod itself... 8-episode limitation strikes again, I guess.
 
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Ianal

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It seems there are three certainties in life. The Wheel, the Pattern, and the Whitecloaks being complete bastards.

But that aside, this episode made me smile. Lots of little things - Hopper, Rand being unexpectedly good with kids, Siuan's dream, Moiraine and Lan sharing a flask of rotgut. And I really liked the depiction of Cold Rocks Hold, and the way the Sea Folk were portrayed, complete with OTT jewellery.
 
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lucubratory

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(which my cousin described as “a lesbian and her gay best friend hanging out, and it’s unclear which is which”)
This made me laugh hard enough my husband came to check on me. Very accurate & I can't wait to see your cousin's reaction to next episode!

Rand being unexpectedly good with kids

I've seen a book reader theory around that
she's the little girl he'll try to revive & fail, which originally happens in the Stone of Tear. In which case thanks I hate it lol.


Overall, I'm loving the season so far. I'm particularly loving the pacing & the tick-tock between "Holy shit" and "Wow, look at this amazing world" episodes. It helps a lot with not feeling like the pace is too breakneck, & I've noticed it gives the show a lot more opportunity to put a lot more fanservice & book things in, while still working towards the grander story.

I'm definitely excited about multiple things to come this season, but one of the big ones is I really hope we see Min's heavily foreshadowed vision of Mat get resolved. One of my personal favourite sequences in the books, with a bunch of content that I absolutely can't wait to see.
 
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I enjoyed this series so far, as a person who read the first six books but gave up when it got too complex and impossible for me to follow. Season 3 definitely has been the best though, clearly better television even aside from anything in the books (and I can't remember anything from the books, so discontinuities from the books don't bother me at all).

Curious: how many seasons will this go if it tells the full story? Assuming they skip over some of the middle of the series that really drags, could this be a 6-7 season show? I can't imagine it will be renewed for 12 seasons or whatever it would take to go one book per season...
It is supposed to be 8. This season they’ll finish Tanchico, get Rand declared car’a’carn, advance the Perrin subplot, and advance the Elaida tower drama. That will get us almost to the point where they can do Dumai’s Wells and Ebou Dar in season 4, which would actually put them ahead of schedule. Seven of the 14 books, and the first 8 chapters of Book 8 would be done.

This also sets them up very nicely for their oh-shit-Bezos-only-gave-us-five-seasons plot because at the end of seven almost everyone is waiting for a new subplot and you only really have to do
Egwene uniting the Tower and Rand cleansing Saidin
to do the last battle.
 
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Egwene just seems to jump into expert mode, flitting between dreams and things mostly sticking. Understandable, of course, from a budget perspective, but slightly disappointing nonetheless. They could've done some sort of visual effect to differentiate it more, at least.
Egwene thinks she’s expert, but all she’s actually done is enter her friends dream and get almost murdered by Lanfear. So I suspect there will be some consequences for this, perhaps even a realization that she needs two more episodes of training, prior to the Pattern/plot informing her that it’s time to leave the Aiel and go to REDACTED.
 
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balthazarr

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Egwene thinks she’s expert, but all she’s actually done is enter her friends dream and get almost murdered by Lanfear. So I suspect there will be some consequences for this, perhaps even a realization that she needs two more episodes of training, prior to the Pattern/plot informing her that it’s time to leave the Aiel and go to REDACTED.
Agree, but she shouldn't have even been able to do that. And they could've added a scene where she was sucked into a friend's dream and lost control or something like that to emphasise her inabilities and the dangerousness of the place... anyway, I get it, and am thankful for the show we have, even with the limitations.
 
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Tofystedeth

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It seems I have a different opinion to most so far – I was disappointed with this episode, and most disappointed with how they dealt with the dream world. Not just the depictions, but its introduction.

Egwene just seems to jump into expert mode, flitting between dreams and things mostly sticking. Understandable, of course, from a budget perspective, but slightly disappointing nonetheless. They could've done some sort of visual effect to differentiate it more, at least.

I also don't think there was enough exposition about her abilities, and Tel'aran'rhiod itself... 8-episode limitation strikes again, I guess.
I really wish we'd gotten a couple more eps per season. The first few eps this season were fast paced, but felt about right for introducing new status quos, starting the season off at a high energy level to get people excited, and setting people off on their various journeys. But this episode did feel a little rushed to me. The Perrin part and Egwene's training especially.
 
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Canadru

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Okay. I'm 5 minutes away from the end of episode 5. And it has inspired me to maybe write a longer post about the relationship of this show to self-determination theory. Social psychology seems like a science that is not often surfaced in this forum. I would love to bring it here. I think I will need to reflect on whether I want to post something or not. If any of you respond with curiosity by voting this post up, I will be more likely to do it. Ew that sounds like something a real attention seeker would say. But anyway, I'm not that guy.
 
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Ageispolis

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They had Elias (the other wolf-brother) in the previous season as a mentor-character to Perrin. The slain wolf, Hopper, was more a presence in the books because we got telepathic-style dialogue between him and Perrin that the show chose(probably correctly) not to do.

Faile is the love interest, but her arc is also most of the Slog in the middle books.
Ah yes, I recall Hopper and Elias alright now quiet clearly.

The middle books all meld into each other. Honestly I probably speed read over her completely.

Thank you for the refresh.
 
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cipram

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Also, assuming the show is going to follow Elaida's path from the books, they probably thought she must start out more ruthless due to the content they had to cut to turn Wheel of Time into a TV series.
I was quite shocked Elaida simply executed someone. Isn't this a VERY clear violation of the Three Oaths? And wasn't such a violation a clear indicator that the perpetrator was Black Ajah? I realize the Oaths haven't been prominent so far ...

(And, an aside: Are we worried that Perrin actually DID kill Geofram Bornhald? How will this play out?
 
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pokrface

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I was quite shocked Elaida simply executed someone. Isn't this a VERY clear violation of the Three Oaths? And wasn't such a violation a clear indicator that the perpetrator was Black Ajah? I realize the Oaths haven't been prominent so far ...
The show Aes Sedai are the same expert rules-lawyers that they are in the books. Here are the Three Oaths:

1) To speak no word that is not true;
2) To make no weapon with which one man may kill another;
3) Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense of her life, the life of her Warder, or another Aes Sedai.

When Elaida merks Amico, she's not lying, she doesn't "make a weapon" with the One Power (which most Aes Sedai seem to believe means something like "I won't fashion a sword out of Air and then hand it to someone else for them to do violence with"), and since Amico is a darkfriend, oath 3 doesn't apply.
 
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Lavonheim

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I really wish we'd gotten a couple more eps per season.
It's funny, I'm even greedier. I'd like a 90s era 20+ episodes a season. Really give it room to breath, like Babylon 5. As much as I liked the Road to the Spear, I kinda' feel a bit like it was a waste of the limited time they have, that maybe they could have trimmed it even further down to its essentials, not just cutting out the Sharing of Water and the First Maiden but even further, to just what the audience needs to know Rand saw when he... uses the knowledge later. That is, maybe it was a little too indulgent to book fans. (Not that I don't appreciate it)

Except.

If WOT gets its full 8 seasons of 8 episodes, then combined with the episodes being 50% longer than 90s TV episodes.... well, 96 90s-TV-equivalent episodes is not too far off from B5's 110.... Or 88 if you discount the whole fifth season because the major story arcs were wrapped up in the fourth.

So in reality they have the time to tell a good story (though not the full story). Assuming they get another five seasons. Assuming. And if not, well, I think the first half of the series is the best anyway.
 
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Tofystedeth

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I was quite shocked Elaida simply executed someone. Isn't this a VERY clear violation of the Three Oaths? And wasn't such a violation a clear indicator that the perpetrator was Black Ajah? I realize the Oaths haven't been prominent so far ...

(And, an aside: Are we worried that Perrin actually DID kill Geofram Bornhald? How will this play out?
Do you mean are we worried that Perrin actually killed Geofram instead of being just accused of it as in the books?
Not really. It makes more sense. In the books him being accused of kill Bornhald, by Byar, who had no evidence other than that he saw Perrin in a nearby town really only exists to bring the Whitecloaks to the Two Rivers and start Dain's spiral. Other than that it didn't have much impact on Perrin or future impact on the story. The event with personal and plot implications was Perrin killing the two unnamed Whitecloaks in book 1 who killed Hopper.

This just merges those two events into one. It will probaby be much harder if not impossible for Dain to let it go, but that's likely the only part that might matter, and he wasn't exactly a load bearing character either.
 
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cipram

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When Elaida merks Amico, she's not lying, she doesn't "make a weapon" with the One Power (which most Aes Sedai seem to believe means something like "I won't fashion a sword out of Air and then hand it to someone else for them to do violence with"), and since Amico is a darkfriend, oath 3 doesn't apply.
Yeah, I forgot about the darkfriend clause.
 
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cipram

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This just merges those two events into one. It will probaby be much harder if not impossible for Dain to let it go, but that's likely the only part that might matter, and he wasn't exactly a load bearing character either.
Not sure I agree on how significant it will turn out to be, but we'll see how it plays out.
 
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